Michael Shirrefs: First of all just tell me your name and your title, and where we are.

Jean-Marc Léri: Jean-Marc Léri, Directeur du Musée Carnavalet. Jean-Marc Léri. I'm the Director of Musée Carnavalet—that means the museum of the history of Paris.

MS: And this exquisite building is devoted to the story of one of the most remarkable cities in Europe and the project that I'm working on is really looking at a moment in time in the 19th century when Paris was coming out of an awful lot of conflict. It was coming out of the Franco-Prussian war—it was coming out of the the strife of the Communards. And it was trying to find out what it was, reinvent itself, trying to salvage something from the debris of the Hôtel de Ville of its ... of all of that. Just tell me a little bit about what Paris felt at that time. I mean, we can only speculate, but what do we know about how Parisians felt, how the people, like the City powerbrokers felt? What did they want for Paris at that time?

JML: After the time of the Second Empire, the time of Haussmann, big enlargement of Paris, big works to transform Paris, to modernize Paris because it was a big problem, after this period, you had the terrible revolution in 1871—La Commune. And it was after seuil [threshold] of democracy, how to learn to be a democratic country. There was other revolutions, the French Revolution and others, but probably La Commune was the most important. And it was also a big conflict between Parisians themselves—between the Left part and the Right part. And so it was the moment to show, everywhere in the world, that Paris was not destroyed, was not totally changed, but was ... (how to explain?) the light of Europe, the most elegant city, the most new city and large, with lights. It was really light, because it was gas everywhere in Paris, at a time where London had candles, and it was very different.

It was a time also of the birth of gay Paris—I mean restaurants, cafés. And not only restaurant inside in the house, but outside terraces, and that was something absolutely new. And it was a time when the city of Paris decided to show, all over the world, that after a terrible moment of La Commune, they were able to show, all the world, three exhibitions, important exhibitions, the first one in 1878, the second one 1889 and the third one 1900—La Belle Époque. It was the summit of Paris, and everybody knows it was the end of the world, it was the end of the 19th Century. After a while, it was the First World War in 1914, and it was a terrible moment.

And at the time of the big exhibition, International Exhibition, Paris decided to cooperate with all the big cities in the world, to show that Paris was not only the light, the gay Paris, with la petite femme de Paris, but also a city conscious of her important past and her important future.

So, it was a moment when they decided to give all the big cities in the world a lot of publications—publications on the past of Paris, history of Paris, source of the history of Paris, documents coming from archives, from libraries, manuscripts and so on. Also, all the maps of Paris, publications, they published all the ancient maps of Paris. But also photographs of Paris before and Paris after the big works. And also Paris, modern Paris.

And it was a very active political exchange, book exchange with a lot of cities in the world, not only London, Berlin, Madrid, Roma, but also Philadelphia, New York, in Australia—I'm sure you have a collection of these two of Paris. And now, at the Hôtel de Ville of Paris, where now is the Mayor of Paris, you have a very important library on the first floor. And in this library, it is the library of the administration of Paris, you have a very important collection of books coming from everywhere in the world, of all the big cities in the world. This collection was come ... the beginning of the collection is around 1871-72 and, till the First World War, it was a big, big political exchange with all the libraries of the big cities in the world. And now, you have the remain, on the first floor of the the Hôtel de Ville in the library, you have a lot of books coming from Germany, from the United Kingdom, from Italy, from United States, from New Zealand, from Australia, from Russia—it's a very, very important collection.

MS: In modern terms, what do you think these books are telling. What is the conversation that's happening. Is it sort of city competitiveness? is it city pride? Is it city generosity?

JML: You know ... um ... generosity probably, not too much. I don't think so.

I think it was to show that Paris was a big city, it was not only the gay Paris, the city of pleasure, but also a city that works on her past and on her future. And it was very important. It was a showcase, a showcase to show, it was a show for Paris, but also I think it was a big competition at the time between Paris and London, because London was more modern than Paris. For example, the subway was down in London and then in Paris. For example, the subway of Budapest was built before the subway of Paris, Vienna just after. And it was a competition to have the most modern city, where today, Vienna and Budapest are always rivals. And at the time, say where in rivalry with—they were very important cities. And it was to do it a way to show that all the cities, big cities, were coming out of the Middle Ages to the 20th Century. And everybody was sure of the progress.

You know, they say that the Great Exhibition, the International Exhibition of 1889, was the exhibition of Iron, and the Exhibition of 1900 was the Exhibition of Electricity, because everybody was sure that they were in the time of human progress, but in technical progress, and it was rivalry between all of these cities to shows that say they were in the progress at the time.

I'm sure it's more than generosity, it was more a way to show that Paris was an important city. But also for other cities, they sent books to Paris to show they were conscious of her past, but conscious of the progress.

MS: I wonder, in 1880 when we received that collection of books in Melbourne, on the occasion of the 1880 Exhibition in Melbourne, whether there was also a sense that Paris could export what it did—that this modernity was something that could be a product that could be exported to other cities. Do you think ... for example Australia was a very new country, Melbourne was a very rich city at that time, and I wonder if the city fathers of Paris thought, 'Maybe we can offer to build these new cities, maybe they will take our style, our technology.' Do you think that was part of it?

JML: I think there, at the exhibition, the pavilion was destined, was dedicated to the commercial part. France and Paris can help you, can exchange money with you. But the books were another thing. It was ... the exchange of books was done to show that Paris was also a very ancient city and a very modern city. It was another way, with the books, it was more intellectual. You had the pavilion, I'm sure you had the pavilion for commercial, but the books, and probably, I'm not sure, but there was a mission of the Mayor and people from the city of Paris to Melbourne, they travelled probably to offer what they could do for Melbourne. And I'm sure Australia did exactly the same in France for the Great Exhibitions. It was normal at the time, everybody trusted in the progress. Now it's changed (laughs).

MS: At that moment, I mean 1880 is still ... Paris is still very fresh from upheavals. The memory of what had happened ten years earlier, the destruction of many of the buildings, and many of the collections within the buildings, I mean a lot of archives must have been destroyed. Was there any hesitation about this sort of thrusting forward, this sort of drive into the future? Were there people that were going, 'Maybe it's not all that it's cracked up to be. Maybe we're about to lose something important from our past'?

JML: At the time, I'm sure that the City of Paris decided immediately to put out all traces of drama. For example, the Hôtel de Ville that was destroyed by fire, was immediately reconstructed. And everywhere in Paris, in five years, everything was reconstructed. And for example ...

MS: Was it really five years?

JML: Oh ... around ... yes. Yes, the Hôtel de Ville was inaugurated in 1882, ten years after. You cannot imagine how quickly it was done. Rue du Rivoli was reconstructed in 1875. Yes, you know that it was war between Prussia/Germany and France, in 1870, and the Treaty—Peace Treaty—Germany asked for five millions Francs (at the time it was Francs, not Euros, golden Francs, in gold), and it was paid in 1875. In five years, everything was paid, because France was probably in very good economical health. The drama was only in Paris, but everywhere else it was rich, and Paris increases largely at the time. And we say Haussmann has transformed Paris, but if you look at the big works, you see is that, at the time of Haussmann, it's only one-third part of the big works that where done. All two-thirds were done between 1871 and 1914. And it was probably the most important change of Paris, was a very powerful moment—the moment where Paris was the largest in population also—3 million inhabitants—now you have 2 million only!

MS: One collection, within that, is very ... I think quite a common collection through France, the Histoire Générale de Paris, which we have copies up to 1880 and they keep going beyond that don't they, into the 20th century. They were begun by Haussmann. Was this something of a manifesto, by Haussmann, to argue for his project? Were these books something of a sort of an essay on this is why Paris needs me ... this is why Paris needs this project?

JML: Probably yes, probably, because ...er ... in fact you're right, some collection of the history, and the publication of the source of this history of Paris, were begun by Haussmann before the Commune, and a lot of books, probably around 30 titles, were published at the time of the Commune. And it was very important for them because, at the time where the old Paris constructions were destroyed, for example the Île de la Cité was almost destroyed, they decided to publish all the history of Paris—ancient Paris—to publish the old maps of Paris, to show how was Paris before.

Was it a conscious project or unconscious. I'm not sure. I never met Haussmann, because I was very young at the time, you can imagine. But I think that was probably conscious—they destroyed, and it was necessary to show the source of the history of Paris. And they were proud to show a big collection on the source of the history of Paris, everywhere in the world, from Philadelphia to Melbourne. I am sure. from Valparaiso to to Moscow.

MS: I mean that collection, the Histoire Générale de Paris, was quite ubiquitous throughout France. I imagine that most libraries would have had a collection. What was the function within France. Was it to do more than promote ... I mean was it a fairly benign history of Paris, or do you think it had a political agenda?

JML: It's very difficult for me to answer, because, you know, at the time of Haussmann, there is something sure that they began a big collection to make a museum after history of Paris—it's now the Musée Carnavalet. So, it was probably a political purpose, because it was at the same time they decided to make the collection Histoire Générale de Paris, so probably there is a big project. The problem is that, at the moment of the Commune, the Hôtel de Ville was destroyed by fire and all the archives were destroyed. So, we have no testimony of what they said at that moment. We have the memories of Baron Haussmann, but looking at memories Baron Haussmann, what he tells, it's not real. He says what he wants, and it's the same for all the others. It's a problem of reminding, it's a problem also—'I was the best and I show you I was the best'. But I ... we cannot be confident in what they write, but we have no archives to know what, exactly, happened at the time. It's a big problem.

You know, Paris is a paradoxical City, because Paris was never destroyed by earthquake, by inundation, by fire, like London, for example, like Lisbon, like Berlin. No, the most important tragedy was La Commune. But, in fact, all the archives were destroyed. For example, the financial archives was destroyed by fire, first time in 1537, a second time, just before the French Revolution, in 1763, and then in 1871. So, we have no archives of the Cours des Comptes [Court of Auditors]. No archives on the City of Paris, because all the archives were destroyed during the fire of 1871. So, Paris is a City where the underground is full of remains. You can have the antique, Roman period, the Gothic period, you have everything, but no papers, no ... no memory. London that was destroyed by the Great Fire, has all the archives, but nothing in the ground. And it's the same for Lisbon. Lisbon is a City with full archives, bjut the day earthquake and a big, big inundation after the earthquake, destroyed all the City. So, Paris is something very paradoxical in Europe.

MS: It's interesting because, one of the reasons I came here originally researching this project, was to come to the Archives Nationales, was because our archives in Melbourne had been destroyed by fire in 1952. So, there were a lot of things from that 19th Century period that we had no provenance for, which is the problem you're saying really is for Paris. But I come to Paris and I see a City that, from that mid period of the 19th century, seemed to develop a reflex for archiving. It's like a City that didn't know how to stop archiving. You know, you have got more libraries, more collections of documents and maps and images. Did that come from the sense that everything was almost lost?

JML: Probably yes. After the important fire, they decided not only to make a museum, but in the same time to make a big library on the history of Paris—it's now the Bibliothèque Historique de la ville de Paris. And, something for me very amazing, that is they don't search help in the National Archive [Archives Nationales] at the time, but more at the National Library [Bibliothèque Nationale de France], because books are more important to find what was the history of Paris, than archives that were destroyed. And the most important person is not only Jules Cousin, founder of the Musée Carnavalet and the Bibliothèque Historique, but also de La Bord at the Bibliothèque Nationales, and there were very close and said decided to make a real politic of searching archives, publishing to make a new history of Paris.

Yes, I'm sure it's very conscious to make not only a museum, with artefacts, but also a big library, to make sense of Paris. And something very amazing at the same time, that they collect, immediately, photographs, to show how was Paris at the time. Masrville, then Atget, and it was a very important collection. Immediately they decided to use the new discovery of photographs to make new memory of Paris.

MS: Well, some of the books, some of the albums in the collection that was given in 1880 were ... I mean, you think, photography really had only become a viable technology really 10, 15 years earlier, and this was showing photography being used in the service of policing, it was shown to document all the the exquisite creations, the ironwork, the lamps, the pissoirs, all the things around the city that were new and were quite dramatic changes to the city. And I actually know that there was an exhibition in Melbourne, curated by the Bibliothèque Nationale about 10 ... no, about 20 years ago, and some of the curators came out and they saw some of these and they said they hadn't seen these photos in such good condition as the ones that were in Victoria. So, it's funny know I come here to look at one end of the archives that we don't have in Melbourne, some of the ends of your material is in Melbourne, and these things, somehow they need to be connected up.

But, I'm interested that these archives ... I go into somewhere like the Archives Nationales, and I wonder whether people understand the power of that collection these days. I mean, they certainly understood the urgency, back in the 1870s, of collecting. Do people understand that this is an incredibly valuable collection that they have now?

JML: Probably. In Paris, also in the Musée Carnavalet, we are so involved in this collection that we we are not objective about it, so it's very difficult to speak about it (laughs). Historians are better than I to speak about the importance of the collection, but I know that it was very important. I know because I was in the Committee for 20 years, in the Committee for the Publication of the History of Paris. Now it has changed, but now we are in in the period of technology, it's quite different and nobody's interested anymore in the publication of source of history in any city in the World (laughs).

MS: Is that a problem, that the new technology is threatening the physical object. Are libraries and archives becoming a bit infatuated with the possibility of digitising, that they are finding the physical object a bit of a burden?

The problem is not the technology, because technology gives big possibilities. But, for example, you have a big collection of engravings. If you numérise (digitise) all the engravings without making a catalogue, that means big, long work cataloguing all the engravings, it's not useful. It doesn't serve to anything. No, numérisation is a good technology, but you need human work. And it's quite different, human work is very important in the inventory and cataloguing of the documents we have. Numérise is not enough. No. Even if you have the deliberation of the ancient council of Paris. you can numérise, yes, it's very easy, but you have to analyse too, to know who is speaking, who is saying that, what they speak. To explain, you have to make a publication of the source. And it's a very long, long work.

MS: The catalogue gives context, gives all the surrounding information.

JML: Yes, and it's very boring to do it, because it needs big long, long work and hard work.

MS: And a lot of money. And that's where a lot of the institutions don't have the resources.

JML: I'm not sure. Today, students want to have immediate results and publishing the source doesn't give him media results. You publish, and other historians use your work. But at the origin, you have to publish. For example, the deliberation of the Bureau de la Villes, it means the municipal council, published only till the middle of the 17th Century. From 17th century to the French Revolution you have only the manuscripts and manuscripts need to be published. And they stopped it 10 years ago, it's a pity, because everybody works around the same source without a new study on the source, and no publication of the source. And it's very ... I think we have a lot to discover, even now, for the 17th and 18th Centuries on the history of Paris.

MS: Just as an aside, I've been trying to find any scholarly work about, just for example, the Histoire Générale de Paris, and I've had no luck finding anything. Do you know anyone that has written anything that's an analysis of that?

JML: It was a big administrative difficulty to sell this collection. Untill the 50s, It was very easy. After the War, it was very difficult and less and less money to make this publication and more and more it was late. And now ... it's finished. It's a pity, it's a big pity, because for example, for the French Revolution, a big part of the deliberation of the different committee, Revolutionary Committee are not published.

MS: Which is a problem for your collection, because you need that sort of work to be done to underpin what you have here, because you have the physical evidence of what is in those books?

JML: But even in Carnavalet, we have big problems for the collections. We try to catalogue all the collection, but, for example, for the ceramics, Revolutionary ceramics, we have 8000 pieces, and 8000 pieces, a little part is studied and catalogued, but a large part is not yet, because it's a long, long, long time. We can numérise, yes, but numérising without studying is not helpful.

MS: The book that started my project, the book that started my research, was the Atlas des anciens plans de Paris, and to me that that was an interesting book in the collection, because it was almost as if the people putting these together and handing these books out was saying 'well, this is who we used to be, but we're not like that anymore. It was very quaint. It was very romantic, but we are now very rational, very modern, we're not like that anymore'. So, it felt like it was almost putting distance between modern Paris and historic Paris. And because I've read some of the essays in Bonnardot [Alfred Bonnardot, Études archéologiques sur les anciens plans de Paris, 1851], and it seems that there is almost a sort of a humour in the choices of the maps, like some of these maps were picked because they were completely wrong, but they're interesting anyway. Some of them were nice attempts. Some of them were, you know, odd and quirky, but none of them were picked because they were mathematically, scientifically correct. So, it was almost like saying 'that's how we used to do it—this is how we do it now'. Because there are other atlases is that collection, which are very precise, very rational. What do you think about that sort of collection being put together, that Atlas in particular?

JML: For Bonnardot, the problem is that the essays in Bonnardot were, at the time, very ancient. It was published for the first time in 1852. It was a very ancient, even at the time. But it was very interesting because he was the first one to look at the maps, ancient maps of Paris, to try to classify them, because it felt in his mind that it was some source that gave some type of maps, and some other source that gave some other maps. He was a first, also, to understand that the scientific progress changed the point-of-view of the men who did these maps. And point-of-view is not only the point-of-view mental, but also physical. We imagine today that the first maps of Paris were designed and drawn from the Colline de Chaillot, from Trocadero, because it's the only place in Paris where you can see the island, Île de la Cité, and two Banks, Left and Right Banks, it's the only one with the Seine in the middle. And the first title of all the plans of ancient Paris is Plan de la Ville, it's the Right Bank, Cité, it's the Island, et l'Université. the Left Bank of Paris.